Transcript below if you prefer to read. Edited slightly for clarity.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/7mTL13MV1XhpZzNnrmdvIQ?si=OGuxqavsSA6u61O4M3FBNQ
I need to get my thoughts down. A few people who know me well have asked about my opinions on what’s happening. Oh, man. And I want to be very careful and very clear. I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord. I believe that the gospel is good news for all people on all walks of life, with all different sins and all different issues.
And I believe that there’s lots of people who are struggling to make sense of tensions that some of us feel within, within the circle of Christian, because Christian as a label is pretty broad.
There are some who want to use the label for anyone who claims to love Jesus, Anyone who claims to believe, generally speaking, the beliefs and the concepts of Christianity, right? I grew up in this kind of rhetoric, like, just because you go to church, doesn’t make you Christian, and, like, going to McDonald’s doesn’t make you a hamburger, right? Do you remember people telling you that you can go to church your whole life and never really have a relationship with Jesus Christ? And that was the point of that.
And well, we still believe in that, and we still have this sense. We definitely still have this sense that God’s people, the people who followed Jesus, are going to be a lot smaller than whoever claims to, and there’s gonna be some surprises. It’s not necessarily the case that everyone who says… well, we’re actually given in the Bible, the place where Jesus gives us an example. He says, not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord” will really be followers of Christ, and it’s pretty shocking, what Jesus says. “Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, will be with me.” (Matthew 7:21) And in fact, God’s gonna say, “I never knew you” and will cast them out. And that should give us all pause and maybe scare us all. I mean, it scares me. It definitely gives me pause.
And then, you know, this idea that we have to agree on ALL the things… well, one of the things that I’ve watched happened in the past few years, especially, with growing intensity are these claims of “if you don’t agree with ABC, then you’re not really a Christian.”
I remember in 2020 being told by a very prominent Christian, pastor, influencer, multimillion dollar ministry leader, telling everybody, and this is almost a quote, “If you don’t vote for Trump, you’re not a true Christian.” That was an actual thing that someone very prominent said, and (yes John MacArthur) he was very clear that. I remember him saying something like, “You know, I talked to President Trump and I believe that he’s God’s man and we have to vote for him or you’re not really with us. You’re not really a Christian. You’re not really following Jesus.” And, again, that should have given us all some pause.
Some of us were absolutely floored by this because it was just kind of incredible. Like, in the true sense of the word: unbelievable. It lacked credit, credibility. I really did. Some of us were so shocked that someone who, listen, let me say it again, let me be really careful. I would never pronounce that John MacArthur was not a Christian. Like, that’s not something I’m comfortable with saying. I’m not gonna come out and say John MacArththur didn’t know Jesus, because that would be extreme, and I don’t know. I don’t know for sure. I can’t tell you for sure either way. I mean, there are people who’ve made really interesting arguments on both sides, for and against, whether or not people like him really understood the gospel. There are lots of people who can more intelligently debate that than me, because I’m not. I don’t want to go there. I don’t want to talk about him specifically.
What I want to talk about is this idea that someone can make a pronouncement of who is a Christian, and a reason why based on something like who they vote for as president. And I find it really troubling to then think about it and think it through. How do we know if someones is truly a believer or not? What metrics are we looking for? And do we have the same metric for everyone, regardless of where they stand? Currently, how mature are they as Christians? How long are they been Christians? What kind of teaching have they been under… there’s just a lot of questions that I have about the people who make some kind of pronouncement about who is and who is not following Jesus, who is and who is not truly preaching the gospel.
And I think we need to be -we being anyone who’s talking about this stuff, we all, all y’all, and myself- clear and to be super careful about the judgment on these we define very specifically. In my mind, judgment is when you are making the decision about whether or not that person is a Christian or not, and whether or not that person is going to eternal punishment or not. I would never presume to know that. I would never make that pronouncement.
I remember one time talking to someone about the phrase, “go to hell” and we were talking about how shocking that really is, and how it can never, ever, ever be said lightly and maybe never said at all… ’cause I can’t imagine. I understand the anger behind it. Don’t get me wrong. I understand when it SEEMS justifiable to say to someone who’s really truly committed evil. So I get it. And I’m not judging that either. We all have our moments of frustration and anger that sets us over an edge. I have lots and lots of space for that.
And that’s kind of, to wrap back around, what we’re getting at. What space do we leave for certain behaviors and not others, right? When we see it, when we’re trying to call out the hypocrisy that’s happening, it really is this kind of moral disconnect that happens when people are at their worst and when people are really trying to make sense of things and just saying things out loud and trying to figure out.
There’s definitely those people that say things and then spend the rest of the time backtracking. I tend to be someone who wants to have all these disclaimers and kind of couch everything I’m saying. And I think it’s necessary at times to be very careful, because one phrase might mean something to you, but it might mean something different to someone else. And that’s part of what we’re dealing with here. Do we all mean exactly the same thing with the words we’re using? And no, I don’t think we do. I don’t think we have a shared definition or glossary, right? We don’t have the same take on all the things, all the words, all the phrases. We definitely don’t. Just like the way, as you know, the word “woke” has become a whole thing and it means different things to different people and there are definitions that don’t always line up. So who gets to decide which definition we’re using, right? And that’s part of discourse. It’s like, let’s talk about what you mean. What do you mean when you say woke? Is it the same as what I mean and can we agree to use it in the same way?
For me? I don’t care. Most of the time, I’ll use the word according to what I know YOU mean it to mean. Because that’s how language works, right? Like translation work is figuring out the word that That culture uses, not what you want them to use or not the way you want to define it, but the way that culture defines it. That’s how you do translation, right?
Anyway, all that to say… You know, I think that we have to be really, really, really careful about making Broadbrush statements. I’m always saying that. I always say that. Broadbrush statements get us into trouble. That’s a Broadbrush statement. So I fully grasp the irony.
And that is the irony of a lot of what’s going on, is that people don’t want to do the work of unpacking and defining and making sure we’re all on the same page. They just want to plow ahead and demand that everybody agree with them and, if you don’t, then you’re “against them.” Instead of saying, hey, let’s clarify what you’re saying, so that I make sure I understand what it is you’re getting at. I’m not sure I agree, but I’m not sure. I’m not sure I agree AND I’m not sure I don’t agree. Let’s make sure.
Are questions attacks?
And other times, I know I’m not agreeing with you, and I’m trying to understand better where you’re coming from. and it can be difficult when you ask questions. There are some people who feel like questions are just attacks. Like, I mean, you hear it in their language right away. They get defensive and they think you’re attacking them or trying to make them feel bad or shaming them. Often, it’s because that’s all they know. And there’s a lot of us out there that when we get engaged in any kind of tension, political discourse, or relationships, or whatever, all we know is attack, right? And way too often in Christian circles. All we know is to attack each other and to try to bring each other down.
I watch it happen all the time. I watched it happen for the past 20 years in ministry. People don’t necessarily want to understand each other or work through it. They just want to make the other person feel bad or they just want to make the other person go away, you know, drive that other person off. Like, I don’t want you here anymore. And they can’t, they can’t always say that out loud. Although, I’ve heard people say that. The people have said that to my husband that they don’t want him there. And sadly, that’s Christian discourse, when there are people who are allowed to get away with that and just say things that are pretty hateful. They’re just allowed to say it to your face. It’s awful, but sometimes we let people, depending on who they are, or depending on how much of a coward WE are, we let people get away with it and just write off. Like, oh, they are having a bad day or oh, you could see why they’re upset. Let’s just forgive them and move on. That’s where we’re at.
That’s where we’re at now; it’s that all of that has added up. People have said hateful things and we just let it stand.
And so now, and here’s something I’ve been thinking about a lot, and I’ve recorded in the past about, you know, when Christian celebrities die – for whatever reason, whether they die of natural causes or unexpectedly- then you watch all the Christians that loved them rally around their legacy. In the Catholic Church, they canonize people, right? Of course, Protestants don’t have that same process, but, maybe we should. Maybe we should have a process where we decide whether or not someone should be canonized. That could be interesting. You know, this kind of collective grief and mourning, and then, you know, people having all kinds of takes on whether or not that person should be honored and memorialized, etc.
And. It can get pretty ugly. And I’m not going to say on both sides. It’s because the amount of memorializing, honoring, uplifting, and defending, trying to protect these celebrities, will never be outweighed by the criticism. That’s the nature of power. That’s the nature of the Evangelical Industrial Complex, as people call them, call it. The nature of -I’m going to call it-the evangelical masses, right? Or the mob, if you will.
I categorize it into two groups, the group that wants to tear down the idols of Christian celebrity. And then there’s the group that wants to make idols of Christian celebrity and build statues and monuments and cling to “look at all the good that he did” and disregarded all the bad things, or we don’t even believe they’re bad. He was just a Man of His Times.
These two groups that rise and come against each other in conflict. And to me, the reality is that first group is never going to be big enough. The critics, the ones who feel that the second group is going overboard in practically deifying these people, making them into saints, canonizing them and making them something special over and above any other believer. I think it’s problematic to suggest that these folks are… somehow, you know, God own heroes, you know, we have the Hall of Fame, the famous Hall of Fame and Hebrews, right? And like, we want to add people to that list. And it’s problematic, and in a lot of ways. Now, that’s not to say that we don’t give on our own respect to the people that have influenced us for the better or, you know, please. And that’s the thing.
People will get me wrong and we’ll go overboard the other way and come with their, you know, pitchforks and torches, right? But the real issue, I think, at the core of it all, in some ways, is to what end?
What IS the Endgame?
Thinking through the motivations of people is really difficult and tricky and complex. But the question of the motivation of our hearts is, to me, the most important one. It really is. It’s the most important. What do we want out of what we’re doing? What is our end goal? What outcomes are we looking for? And when you really press in on that, you think through the people that want to make idols of Christian celebrities who’ve passed and downplay all of the negative things that happened and overinflate all the positive things they did. You ask why. I ask that’s the question. Why are they doing it? What are they looking for out of that?
And the answer in my mind on many of these folks, depending on who it is, these Christian celebrities, they want the affirmation of being right: that their views were right, that their behaviors were right, that everything they did was okay. In the eyes of God, they need it to be okay. Everything that that celebrity did needs to be okay for these people to continue to support them. It does. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy almost. It’s like saying “I have this person and they HAVE to be doing the most right thing because I’m following this person. I believe in this person and I will uphold this person. because if that person is wrong, so am I.”
That’s it. If that person is found to be lacking and wanting somehow, if this person ends up being someone we don’t want to emulate, on some level, then we have to admit we’re wrong. And then we have to say, okay, I I started down this path following this person and turns out this person wasn’t so great and maybe I liked what they had to say, but then I find out their lives weren’t so great.
I mean, we all know a famous example is Ravi Zacharias. He was a disaster. And so we end up having to make all these excuses for his behaviors, or distance yourself from the behaviors, because they were so evil. Or do you try to say, well, they weren’t that evil, right?
And so, we continue down this path of self-aligning; this person, this celebrity has to be okay in my eyes because I want them to be. I need them to be. I need them to be the answer. I need them to be the model behavior and exactly what Christian should be in the world, because I I’m following that person. I’m doing the things that person does. I believe in all the same things that that person does. And so I have to make them the standard. And then, yes, I live up to that standard because I’m just like that person. And I believe everything they did was right. Did you see where I’m going with that?
On Standardized Testing
So in the education industry, we talk a lot about standardized tests, right? As a concerned parent, I’ve been reading up on standardized testing, and I mean, gosh, what industry. It’s a whole industry. It really is. It’s amazing. I don’t know if you guys know this. lol
What’s interesting about it, it’s like, there’s a group of people that come together and create a test that’s supposed to represent what you should know. This is what you should know about this subject. We’ve decided that you need to know these things, and so we’re going to test you on these things. And if you don’t pass, that means you don’t meet that standard. You don’t meet our standards of what we think you should know about this subject, right? That’s the ideology behind standardized testing. These are the standards.
Now, anybody who has been involved in education, whether formally or informally, knows that there’s so many factors that go into that. And someone, somewhere decides that this is the standard, well, a group of someones, hopefully not just one person. But sometimes you get into some difficulties with education and information; what information do you think you should know by this age at this level on this subject? It can get tricky. What if the standard is in the wrong place?
and what if – here’s where it ties back- the standard we have for Christians, this kind of checklist of who’s a Christian, who’s not, and we have this standard of “you have to be these things, you have to agree on these issues in order to be considered a good Christian” but that becomes problematic for anyone who doesn’t measure up to those standards or who questions those standards. Are those really the standards? Are those really fair and accurate? And what if my culture, my interpretation of scripture, my understanding of the Christian life is different from yours? I don’t meet your standards and I don’t agree with your standards. Do I also get to call myself Christian? Do I get to, first of all, make my own test? Right?
And then secondly, do I get to exist in the spaces you’re in and say, I think you and I are speaking different languages. I think you and I have a different version of what the “good news” really is. And then if that’s true, do I get to criticize or scrutinize the ways in which that played out, let’s say for some Christian celebrity? I know things that I disagree with on some people, right? I know what they are. So, do I get to say that? I mean, I don’t I don’t want to. There’s a part of me that’s like, I don’t even want to talk about any of this. I don’t necessarily. I don’t necessarily want to talk about specific people.
But I do want to talk about how the church is going to meet the crisis.
I believe we have to, we have to de-escalate. We’re using de-escalating tactics, which means we’re not going to rise to the same level of hostility and hatred. We’re not going to use the same tactics of subjecting people to our hateful rhetoric or to making suggestions of more violence and more anger. I think that de-escalation right now means ignoring. We can’t ignore it totally, but I do think that we can figure out ways to not add fuel to the fire, right? That building is on fire, and for us to figure out ways to get people out of it, to get to safety, and to fight the fire, not with more fire, but with water.
Fight FIRE with WATER
And how do we do that? How do we fight do we apply water to this situation? I’m saying this as it’s raining and I’m watching the rainfall. How can we be water?. That’s what I’m thinking about.
Water’s lifegiving. And while fires are necessary sometimes, right now I’m trying to figure out how to be water and how to create spaces where we drown out the heat. That sounds, well, that sounds violent, too, doesn’t it? BUT that’s what we’re doing. It’s drowning a fire, and how do we do that?
Some of us, maybe and for some of us, we’re going to have to be in harm’s way, and some of us are trained for that. and we know what to do. Like one of the worst things that can happen, someone who doesn’t know how to fight a fire, running into a burning building. And that’s often the problem I see is a lot of people running into the building and they have noble hearts. Like they want to do the right thing. They want to be helpful, but that may not be the most helpful thing to do on some levels. But if you’re ready, if you’ve been trained, if you know what to do, and you know how to navigate a burning building and you can be helpful, then yeah, let’s do that.
I’ve been saying: ignore the haters, ignore and don’t give more clicks, don’t put more fuel on the fire. How do we become water? How do we combat the hostility and the rhetoric? And then get trained? How do we get ready and prepared? What does emergency preparedness look like? How do we calmly navigate storms before they even hit us? That’s the work that I hope a lot of people are doing right now, because we’re in the storm. The storm is already started. It started a while, many years ago. And so some of us have been trying to do that work all along and just encouraging people to figure out how to be the water, how to be firefighters. Figure out what your gifts are, what your skills are, figure out ways to use those. Be the bucket brigade and let’s get back to a place of safety as soon as we can… as soon as we can.
Because that’s what true followers of Jesus do. That’s the work of the Christian life. To fight the fires and push back when all hell breaks loose.
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Asking For Me 
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