Listen in on Rob’s take on Wicked!

And now for something a little different…

Rob and Robin talk about WICKED: Part 1!! Watch as Rob cooks breakfast and talks about the themes of the story. Transcript below if you prefer to read instead of watch and listen…

Rob Part 2 below that…

Transcript Part 1 and 2:

Robin Jester Wootton
hi, Rob. You want some more coffee?

Rob Wootton

I guess….

[insert banter]

Robin Jester Wootton
I am. This is all scripted.
So, I asked my husband to talk about our, we went to go see Wicked.

Rob Wootton
You’re not going to answer my question.

Robin Jester Wootton
I’m not going to answer your question. You’re here to answer questions. You’re not here to ask questions. We went to see Wicked yesterday, and Rob has…

Rob Wootton
It was on Saturday.

Robin Jester Wootton
Saturday, sorry. And Rob has never seen it. He didn’t really know much about the story. He’s obviously seen Wizard of Oz, and knows that story. Never read the book. Never saw the musical. He knew of the song, Defying Gravity, because everybody knows the song.

Robin Jester Wootton
I saw it in Richmond at the Altria back in 2008, 2009, I think. And I hadn’t seen it on Broadway. I hadn’t read the book. I saw that it was coming, touring through, and I was like, oh yeah, I’ll go see it. I didn’t really know what the story was either at the time. And I remember just being blown away by it. Like, it’s such a great story. I love a good villain story, right? Like, it’s this, like, taking a story that we all know and love and turning it on its head.

Like, what if, you know, the winner writes history, right? What if the story that we have, this is what happened, is from one side, and then you find out the truth is, there’s this whole other side to the story that we don’t know about.

Rob Wootton
I thought you were supposed to be talking to me.

Robin Jester Wootton
I’m just giving the intro, so I know my, my whole, you know, in 2009, like, going through all that, seeing this story, like, it blew my mind. So I was curious about, my husband’s take on everything that happened because he saw it for the first time on Saturday and of course he’s only seen part one so he doesn’t know the rest of the story up until you know Wizard of Oz. … because he often does that before he goes to work um and he’s thrilled to be here answering my questions uh … so Rob tell me about a time um so what do you think what did you think what are your initial thoughts about your wicked part one experience?

Rob Wootton
I was not… like i’ve seen wizard of oz more than once but less than five times down and i’m not like uh i don’t like big into wizard of oz. that’s not because i don’t like musicals as you know dear

Robin Jester Wootton
My husband loves musicals for a straight guy he loves belting it out. He knows all the words to “Let it go.”

Rob Wootton
But I don’t love old movies um… anyway isn’t isn’t there a sense that that the wizard, the wizard of oz in a sense that the wizard doesn’t isn’t like you know the highest moral character ?

Robin Jester Wootton
It’s an excellent question

Rob Wootton
In at the end, you know, I mean we do find out that he’s not really a wizard but he’s not who he says he is But it’s all kind of been a shame That he Is trying to I Don’t know I don’t know. He seems he seems like a weak ineffectual kind of leader hiding behind this facade of power that he’s created And that’s just from the Wizard of Oz, yeah, so That’s okay. Are we saying that so the this part of? I mean part of Wicked is how he becomes I Mean he’s already in Wicked we find out that he’s already starting down that path.

Robin Jester Wootton
Yes.

Rob Wootton
I guess spoilers, like… Why, uh… You know, why does he… hate talking animals?

Robin Jester Wootton
Right.

Rob Wootton
Why does anybody hate talking animals?

Robin Jester Wootton
I mean, that definitely is a theme of fantasy literature, right? Like, we all hate talking… Humanity rises against talking animals often. I mean, it’s in Narnia, right? That’s definitely a theme in Narnia. So obviously, Planet of the Apes. What are some other movies of talking animals? Like, it’s always that kind of… Like, what if all these animals talked at one point.

Rob Wootton
Distracting me from getting all my cooking stuff straight.

Robin Jester Wootton
I’m sorry. Anyway. Yeah, and that’s… That’s definitely a theme of Wizard of Oz, and then, of course…

Rob Wootton
But that’s, like, brand new from Wicked, right? Because I had an absolute no sense of that in Wizard of Oz, right? There was no sense of we hate talking animals.

Robin Jester Wootton
No, no, no, no, not at all.

Rob Wootton
Because it’s the Cowardly Lion, right? Yeah. I mean… Nobody seems to have a problem with him.

Robin Jester Wootton
Well, and that’s a, you know… Yeah.

Rob Wootton
I mean… I think… From what I know of Wicked, which is kind of a point… Part of your point of talking to me isn’t that much. That… I don’t know. I forgot what I was going to say.

Robin Jester Wootton
Well, what did you

Rob Wootton
Oh, oh, I was gonna say, um, it’s like, the original Wizard of Oz, you know, didn’t have this fully developed story that we get from Wicked.

Robin Jester Wootton
Right.

Rob Wootton
Right. So, you know, it suffers a little bit from that. We’re trying to write a fully developed story based on something that wasn’t fully developed.

Robin Jester Wootton
Well, there’s some in the original Frank Baum’s uh you know there’s lots of people who would say like in his original books there’s some you know I mean there’s lots of themes of all that but um the guy who wrote Wicked

Rob Wootton
and you didn’t make my coffee

Robin Jester Wootton
well because the sound is gonna take over because you won’t be able to hear.

Rob Wootton
Priorities

Robin Jester Wootton
Priorities

Rob Wootton
Have you done video editing?

Robin Jester Wootton
I have!

-PART TWO TRANSCRIPT-

Rob Wootton
People really want to watch me talk with my mouth full. No they don’t. For all 11 people that are going to watch this.

Robin Jester Wootton
So tell me about your reactions to Glinda.

Rob Wootton
Ga-linda. What is up with the whole Galinda, Glinda? I mean, you know, it makes sense with the character in the movie, but was that… Was it Glinda in Wizard of Oz? I actually don’t remember.

Robin Jester Wootton
Yeah, it is Galinda. Yeah, Galinda the Good Witch of the, yeah.

You know, the theme of the talking animals and how the goat can’t pronounce her name. And so, you know, it becomes that whole scene of her, like, making fun of him and everybody’s laughing at him because he can’t pronounce her name correctly.

Rob Wootton
I mean, obviously, we’re not supposed to like her, although I’m curious as to what part of the population or the audience would think that she’s awesome from the start. I am rather proud of the fact that I didn’t know it was Ariana Grande, because I never paid attention to her. ummm… And you know, so it’s just this super skinny white blonde girl. I kind of feel like what I did know about Ariana Grande, she wasn’t trying to be that — maybe she is now — but a super skinny white girl, appeal to that kind of deal.

Robin Jester Wootton
That deal. That whole deal.

Rob Wootton
So, yeah, I mean, it’s just like this person is awful. Why would anyone want to be around this person? You know, that whole popular sound, but obviously I’m not like the target audience for — that whole part of society where, you know — uh

Robin Jester Wootton
Yeah yeah yeah no you’re not. and um well it’s interesting because there is this whole like you know Team Elphaba Team Glinda feeling of like you know … people who relate more to Glinda’s character or or make a lot of excuses for her, right, because they do side almost. She’s, you know, she’s just becoming woke and that’s, you know, how people are reading that this whole story is like “oh, well, she’s just realizing her privilege and she’s just realizing you know how the system works against people like Elphaba and just becoming more empathetic and you have to give her a chance to develop as a character and to realize how awful she is,” right?

Rob Wootton
Uh I mean so not knowing what is gonna happen in the second part, I mean, it’s not like my guess isn’t gonna be correct; it’s not really that complicated a story. But you know like the the only thing that could be redeeming for, I mean, it could be a story of becoming woke which would be great, but it doesn’t appear to be that, because at the beginning of Wicked we see her coming down and sort of when asked the question “Does she know Alphaba” …uh Alphaba?

Robin Jester Wootton
Elphaba

Rob Wootton
Elphaba, um and she says yes but she kind of distances herself. And of course you know in the Wizard of Oz, you know the wicked witch is dead. And so, it isn’t… this is not… it does not appear to be a redeeming story for Galinda and there was a possibility of that. I mean, I kind of like that as far as storytelling, you know, a character who has a chance and doesn’t take it. You know, I mean obviously with the whole thing with Wicked it’s like, “Who is really wicked?” You know is it Michelle Yeoh’s character … I don’t… do you know her character’s name?

Robin Jester Wootton
Morrible.

Rob Wootton
Morrible?

Robin Jester Wootton
Madam Morrible.

Rob Wootton
Is she the wicked one? I mean obviously with the story of Wicked, Elphaba is not the one who’s really wicked, right? Or is it the wizard? Or, you know, I mean, certainly you could say that the main villain of the story is Morrible or the Wizard, but really, it’s someone who has a chance for redemption and doesn’t take it. That’s the most wicked, right? Someone who… it’s kind of like, yes, Morrible?

Robin Jester Wootton
Morrible, rhymes with Horrible,

Rob Wootton
Morrible and the Wizard are wicked, but they never, they kind of seem to be shallower characters, right? Like, I mean, we’ll see what happens in the second part, but they, we don’t have that same kind of sense of the, like we do with Glinda of her really wrestling with it and choosing the side of power, right?

I mean, that’s, that’s what she was after all throughout. Like, she, her, her story is a pursuit of power. She wants to be popular because it gives her power. You know. She wants to be a witch/ sorcerer because it gives her power. She’s, she, when faced with the choice at the end of Wicked part one, the movie, she has a choice and she chooses instead to go with power, right? So, that’s the story, you know, who really is wicked?

And as I mentioned to you before, when we were, like after we saw the movie, it’s a postmodern story because it actually does consider like what created the situation that we have, right? And it’s not black and white. And people want it to be black, white, good versus evil. This is clearly evil. This is clearly wicked. You know, she’s green and wears all black and rides around on her broom. So clearly she’s evil. But how did she get there, right? And so, yeah.

Is this why you want to talk to me? Cuz I will start talking.

Robin Jester Wootton
That’s right. Because when you start talking, you can’t help it. Because you’re so wise.

Rob Wootton
I don’t know about that.

Robin Jester Wootton
Lots of good thoughts. I mean, you know, the author of Wicked the book certainly wants, I mean, he’s been interviewed. He said this is what I want people to talk about is what makes someone wicked. What makes someone like, is anyone truly evil? And then is there some kind of explanation for how they get there? And he was very interested in creating this backstory for Elphaba as someone called “Wicked Witch.” It very much was. He looked at this movie and he watched this woman. He’s like, what if this story was told differently? What if the way that she’s portrayed in Wizard of Oz is all biased, right? Like it’s all prejudicial. We’re automatically, I mean, she’s called the Wicked Witch. So we’re going to automatically assume certain things about her. What if that assumption is wrong? What if we don’t know? What if we don’t really know her story and why she’s doing what she’s doing? And it becomes a good thought exercise and like what we really believe about people and the evil things that they do.

And on the other side, why do we call certain people good? Like we just automatically assume that Glinda is good and that she’s trying to do her best. And we just kind of let her get away a lot because he even brings that more in the book, apparently. Like, you know, this idea of like, she’s beautiful. She’s blonde. I mean, blonde is very much a part of the description. And so it’s like, well, you know, it’s like he’s going. I mean, he’s just going for it. Like, he’s a white dude and he’s just like, there’s definitely a part of the thought process, it’s like the way you look also contributes to how people perceive you.

And so if you’re automatically assuming certain things about people based on what they look like, I mean, it’s very much like that label of if you call someone “Wicked Witch,” like that’s their name, the common folk of the world are going to assume certain things about that person without any further investigation on their part. It’s like, okay, we’re just gonna, you know, Madame Morrible at the end, “This woman, she’s green and she’s evil.” And everyone just goes, okay, she is. And then they act accordingly.

Rob Wootton
I was curious to know what though, and you have a better sense of this. I have no sense of it. I mean, I could guess, what the sort of MAGA response to Wicked or the, you know, white evangelical response is because, you know, my guess is that prior to the movie, like the movie, of course, is going to have much broader audience than the musical did, right, and just based on, you know, trying to get tickets and how packed out the theaters were for Saturday, it seems like it’s going to do well.

Robin Jester Wootton
Oh, it’s going to do. It’s going to be amazing.

Rob Wootton
Yeah. And, like, there’s, you know, obviously the little girl kind of Wizard of Oz, you know, Good Witch. Anyway, the appeal seems like it’s going to be much broader than, you know, theater going musical kind of reach, which as a musical, it did extremely well too, right?

Robin Jester Wootton
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Rob Wootton
So, I mean, I would imagine that, you know, the Marjorie Taylor Greene type folks are going to denounce it as woke. And which, you know, I make no apologies for making this political because that has been the fault of people in my former position, pastors. conservative, evangelical world I’ve made is to not engage with politics, but that’s a different conversation, … but uh, you know, so just, you know, and didn’t you say something about how the author said it’s even more applicable today in 2024 than when he wrote it back in 95?

Robin Jester Wootton
Yep.

Rob Wootton
And so, like, you think about, like, today’s characters like Trump and like, Trump is a shallow character, right? I mean, he’s not a well-developed character. Like, if you were writing that character, like, he’s, you know, the wizard or whatever, right? I mean, he’s, you know, shallow and scared and, uh, projecting power that he doesn’t have. And, you know, so, and then, you know, I don’t know who the Morrible would be, you know, I mean, I haven’t paid close enough attention to the people he surrounds himself with, like Steve Bannon, although I don’t, someone will know better than me what Steve Bannon’s trajectory has been like, but the question is, is like, was, you know…

I just got emotional. Is there someone like me who was caught up in the, you know, I mean, the GOP was very different, you know, 20 years ago when I was following my uncle. And for the listener, he was very political, and he was appointed to the Justice Department by George H. W. Bush, and I always wanted to be like him, and we were alike, and so I just followed him into, you know, what I thought was a thoughtful conservative Republican world, and, you know, white evangelical conservative. So, is there someone who, like me, who was in that, who could then look at the situation and faced with the choice of, am I going to side with what I was told all along is wicked and I see that it’s not. Or am I just going to, you know, take the blue pill – mix my stories here- back to living in a world where I’m not challenged by what is potentially wicked or not, right?

I mean, it’s like I was accused recently on social media of sounding woke and I was like, damn right I’m woke, and I want more people to wake up to the dangers of, conservatism, you know, white evangelical conservatism in particular. So, I mean, that’s, you know, that’s the story of Wicked, right? And are you going to fight something which very well could be a losing battle, because you know it’s right, right? I mean, obviously we know that she loses, that Elphaba loses, and man, it would be stupid but very, you know, unsurprising if they try to have a wicked part three where Elphaba’s not dead, but they shouldn’t. But, you know, are you gonna fight for what’s right? And we didn’t get into the fact that, you know, in the movie Elphaba’s portrayed by a black woman, and how that factors against the very whiteness of Galinda…

“Gaaaaaa linda.” I liked that.

Robin Jester Wootton
I know you did. Yeah, I mean, of all the characters, like, you were the goat.

Rob Wootton
Is that because of the gray beard?

Robin Jester Wootton
Uh, no, you know, the author of the book Wicked has certainly said that his book was meant to be political. It’s meant to be, you know, socio-political in that he was definitely wrestling with the issues of, you know, racism, prejudice, how it affects the systems that we have in place, and the messages that we get, like who gets to write history? Who gets to tell us the story, um, you know, it made me think of the line in Hamilton, where, you know, “Who lives, who dies, who tells your story?”

It’s like we get a certain story and just accept it as that’s the narrative of what happened, but we don’t always know. We don’t always know what else has happened up until that point.

Rob Wootton
For me and my types, the beginning of Braveheart, where, um…

Robin Jester
Yes, your types.

Rob Wootton
Where it says that…

Robin Jester Wootton
Robert the Bruce says…

Rob Wootton
Robert the Bruce says that history was written by those who hanged heroes.

Robin Jester Wootton
Yes. I think that’s what it says. “History is written by those who hanged heroes.” And, I mean, you know, that’s the story with Elphaba, right? So, like, we know, and the author did not change the ending, like, we know that Elphaba eventually dies, right? And so, we have that kind of hanging over our heads this whole time, like, what she has done all this time. I think… Yeah.

Rob Wootton
I think to the point of history, and, I mean, one of the benefits of social media, and, you know, I’m just, I’m just saying this to make you like me more, but no, I actually believe it. I believe, you know, your stance that social media is not the evil that people want to portray it is, but one of the benefits of social media in this is that so much more of the story will be preserved … sort of, you know, as resistance. Right, I mean, you cannot erase the millions of people who are making it publicly known that they stand in opposition to the dangerous political landscape that we live in. Yeah, so, you know, I mean, as much as I think you interviewing me and going out onto the web is, I don’t know, fruitless.

Robin Jester Wootton
Thanks, honey. Thanks for your support and glowing recommendation from my work.

Rob Wootton
You know what I mean.

Robin Jester Wootton
I know, I know.

Rob Wootton
It does, you know, it’s not this, obviously isn’t gonna reach dozens. There’s dozens of us, but it does add to the, you know, the millions who are putting something out there that says that.

Robin Jester Wootton
The public record.

Rob Wootton
That, you know. MAGA and white evangelicalism is dangerous.

Robin Jester Wootton
Yes, and maybe like. a hundred years from now, someone will come across my podcast, like, oh, look, somebody stood up for this.

Rob Wootton
Anyway. So yeah, I enjoyed Wicked. I thought I dragged a little bit in the middle. There’s too much of that, like, let’s appeal to, you know, children, like, not children, like adolescent kind of, and, you know, people in their twenties who are still in their adolescence, and sort of, like, love story, and I’m just like, oh, I could take a nap right now, but it finished really strong, and I think you should see it. Thanks for tuning in.

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